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Topic: Share Jesus without Fear

yashafox
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Joined Sat 12/15/07
Posts: 2011
Wed 06/11/08 04:07 PM
I've been reading a good book called Share Jesus without Fear by William Fay. If you're looking around for a good book to read, I'd recommend it. He recommends using five questions as a lead-in to talking to people about your faith

1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?

2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

And from there, it leads him to share scriptures with the people he talks to. Sometimes he meets with anger and asks what makes the person so angry and asks what the person has done or what has been done to them to make them feel that way, or asks what they are feeling or what they're afraid of.

At any rate, I thought the book was and is very interesting and am continuing to learn from it.

He goes on to share verses like

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 3:23: For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Romans 3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death (physical death and eternal seperation from God), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

For I delieverd unto you first of all that which I also received, that Christ dies for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again, the third day, according to the Scriptures (l Cor 15: 3-4).

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with me (Rev 3:20).

For "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13.

He says that you can have someone read these scriptures and explain to you what they think they mean and you can ask

1. Are you a sinner?

2. Do you want forgiveness of sins?

3. Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and rose again?

4. Are you willing to surrender your life to Jesus Christ?

5. Are you ready to invite Jesus Christ into your life and into your heart?

He recommends that you be silent and pray after asking these questions.

He says if someone says yes to question five, you can ask him or her to pray: Heavnly Father, I have sinned against you. I want forgiveness for all my sins. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for me and rose again. Father, I give you my life to do with as you wish. I want Jesus Christ to come into my life and into my heart. This I ask in Jesus' name, Amen.

Abracadabra
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Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 5844
Wed 06/11/08 04:56 PM
Here's my answers to the questions.

1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?

Beliefs? I think it's highly likely that our true essence is that we are spiritual beings.

I suppose you could call that a 'belief'. But I'm not going to fight for that belief.

If you're an atheist selling atheism, I'll confess to being an agnostic. wink

2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

Jesus is the name of a man who was described in the Bible.

The bible makes all sorts of claims about this man.

But we can't possibly know if those claims are true.

Moreover, this man named Jesus never wrote anything down.

Therefore we can't even be sure if Jesus himself would agree with the things that were written about him.

Who do you think Jesus is?

Oh,... I see. You believe the stories without questioning them.

That's you're free choice. More power to you.

3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

No. I imagine if there is a spirit world it's where we all came from and will return too.

I don't believe in good and bad spirit worlds that are separated from each other.

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

Back to where I came from.

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

May I ask you the same question?

1. Are you a sinner?

I don't believe so.

2. Do you want forgiveness of sins?

Forgiveness for what? What is it that you think I've done that is so bad?

3. Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and rose again?

I hope not. If he did, he's due a refund.

I never did anything that would merit being nailed to a pole.

4. Are you willing to surrender your life to Jesus Christ?

He died 2000 years ago. He was nailed to a pole. Remember?

5. Are you ready to invite Jesus Christ into your life and into your heart?

I already did that before I realized how stupid it was.

Nothing happened. The story clearly isn't true.

I realize now that to accept that Jesus died to pay for my sins would require that I condone nailing him to a pole for my sake. It means that if I were there when they crucified him I'd have to pound those spikes in to his flesh myself. I would be saying, "Yes, I condone nailing Jesus to a pole to save my sinning butt"

And that makes no sense at all to me, because like I've already told you, I've done nothing wrong.

So here's my questions to you,...

If you were there when they brought Jesus to the cross would you be willing to nail him to the cross with your own bare hands to save yourself from death?


If your answer is no, then you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

If your answer is yes, then may I kindly ask you to leave because the very sight of you sickens me. sick
yashafox
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Joined Sat 12/15/07
Posts: 2011
Wed 06/11/08 05:47 PM
Actually, the Lord doesn't ask us to do the nailing, he just asks us to do the accepting (see Revelations 3:20 above), the believing, and accepting the changing that comes from being born aqain and becoming a joint heir with Christ.

I had the same problem. The first time I accepted the Lord at 17 years of age, it didn't "take." Like Pharaoh, of old, I repeatedly asked Jesus in, was willing to yield, but went back on my word. I didn't realize that Christians are dead to sin and I could have victory over things that gave me multitudes of problems. I had to go through two failed marriages, I read the Purpose filled Life, and I underwent the death of my last spouse before I fully realized my need to turn completely to the Lord and his ways.

You are absolutely right. There is absolutely no way to prove the existence of Jesus, what he wrote or that he even existed. However: It's a choice, like you pointed out. I chose to believe that Jesus existed, believe what he said is true, I believe and know I was an am a sinner, I believe I need what Jesus did for me.

But, I don't think it all ended 2,000 years ago, that's the thing. Jesus couldn't attend anyone's funeral because whenever he did he completely ruined the show. There's a couple of instances in the Gospel where it recounts Jesus raising people from the dead and Jesus' funeral wasn't exactly a huge affair, either. He never had one!

I think Jesus is alive. He lives in the hearts of those who believe, confess and receive him and he will always be alive.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with him, Abra. I have had good and bad myself, but it's absolutely great now. I will testify to you that Jesus Christ lives, that he can and will do whatever he says he will do and that both you and I need to turn to him for his help and his salvation if we want to have any hope of a future.

I will not go back to where I came from. I don't believe in a spirit world that proceeds this world, and I will not return to dirt. My spirit will live on with God's spirit in the fellowship we now share in part. That fellowship will become full and complete after I die. I am talking to you as one that has an eternal life with God. I am immortal (and so are you). I will share my immortality in fellowship with God almighty and want you and everyone reading this to share it too.

I may run off here since I have to get up and read before work tomorrow (work starts at 4:45, folks).

I hope these words have helped you. Bill Fays' sure have helped me. I have a basis for talking to people about Jesus now. May God bless you all and may you have his words in your life and your heart each and every day.
Abracadabra
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Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 5844
Wed 06/11/08 07:34 PM
QUOTE:
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with him, Abra.


I never said that I had a bad experience with God. I simply said that nothing happened.

QUOTE:
I had the same problem. The first time I accepted the Lord at 17 years of age, it didn't "take." Like Pharaoh, of old, I repeatedly asked Jesus in, was willing to yield, but went back on my word. I didn't realize that Christians are dead to sin and I could have victory over things that gave me multitudes of problems. I had to go through two failed marriages, I read the Purpose filled Life, and I underwent the death of my last spouse before I fully realized my need to turn completely to the Lord and his ways.


I'm truly sorry to hear that your life wasn't all it could have been. I never had any serious problems in my entire life. Although, I might add too that I have always accepted what life brings.

I also never had a 'failed' relationship in my entire life. I just never fell in love (at least never with any woman who was simultaneously single, free, and also interested in me). But then again I don't recall the bible making any promises about finding people mates anyway. There are a lot of single Christians, and even Christians who are in bad relationships and even marriages.

You confess, it appears, that your failings in life came from your own poor choices. Your own actions or inactions. Now you'd like to change that so you've turned to religion. I think that's great. And you couldn't have found a better teacher than Jesus.

But the real truth is that your life will improve because of what you do. Not because of what you believe.

You can't go wrong following the teachings of Jesus. I have "followed" them my entire life myself. And still do.

However, is it truly right to say that I'm 'following" the advice of someone that I'm in total agreement with?

How can you follow someone who thinks the same way you do? When I read the teachings of Jesus I just constantly shake my head in agreement. As harsh as this might sound Jesus has nothing to teach me. I'm already in completely agreement with the moral values he taught. I might add that other men taught them as well, not the least of which was Buddha.

I don't need to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that he died to pay for my sins, or that he rose from the dead to know that the moral values he taught make sense. They already made sense to me long before I ever read a word of his teachings. When I finally did read about his teachings all I did was shake my head "yes" in agreement with what I read.

How can I "follow" someone who thinks exactly like me?

I guess I just can't understand people who don't think like Jesus. Everything he taught seems like common sense to me. He even disagreed with the practices of the Old Testament that had people stoning sinners and seeking revenge (an eye-for-an-eye). So even Jesus denounced the biblical picture of God as far as I can see. It appears that he thought very much like I think.

I seriously don't see any significiant differences.

So how can I 'follow' someone who's teachings agree with my own moral values?

I'm not 'seeking God' George. I'm totally at peace with my creator, and with myself.

But I do get tired of people trying to make other people feel guilty for not choosing sides in religious wars. ohwell
MorningSong
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Joined Mon 02/11/08
Posts: 705
Thu 06/12/08 12:00 AM
QUOTE:

I've been reading a good book called Share Jesus without Fear by William Fay. If you're looking around for a good book to read, I'd recommend it. He recommends using five questions as a lead-in to talking to people about your faith

1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?

2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

And from there, it leads him to share scriptures with the people he talks to. Sometimes he meets with anger and asks what makes the person so angry and asks what the person has done or what has been done to them to make them feel that way, or asks what they are feeling or what they're afraid of.

At any rate, I thought the book was and is very interesting and am continuing to learn from it.

He goes on to share verses like

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 3:23: For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Romans 3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death (physical death and eternal seperation from God), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

For I delieverd unto you first of all that which I also received, that Christ dies for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again, the third day, according to the Scriptures (l Cor 15: 3-4).

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with me (Rev 3:20).

For "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13.

He says that you can have someone read these scriptures and explain to you what they think they mean and you can ask

1. Are you a sinner?

2. Do you want forgiveness of sins?

3. Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and rose again?

4. Are you willing to surrender your life to Jesus Christ?

5. Are you ready to invite Jesus Christ into your life and into your heart?

He recommends that you be silent and pray after asking these questions.

He says if someone says yes to question five, you can ask him or her to pray: Heavnly Father, I have sinned against you. I want forgiveness for all my sins. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for me and rose again. Father, I give you my life to do with as you wish. I want Jesus Christ to come into my life and into my heart. This I ask in Jesus' name, Amen.




flowerforyouflowerforyouflowerforyouflowerforyou
Belushi
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Joined Sat 04/07/07
Posts: 2044
Thu 06/12/08 01:45 AM
QUOTE:

1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?


yes, that we are all connected and if we drop the idea that there is a god (of any sort) we may actually be able to reconnect with each other, instead of allowing gods of war, hate and intolerance to cloud your judgement

QUOTE:

2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

I think that he was lucky man, and had a group of followers that made up all sorts of stories to make him bigger than he was.
He is also mentioned in the Qu'ran as a prophet of Allah. But he is nothing more than a man who could listen to Allah.

QUOTE:

3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

Neither makes any sense for me, so no I dont.

QUOTE:

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

I would stay lying on this beach until the smell and the flies would get too much for my neighbouring sun bathers (the cute little German girls over there ------->) and they reported me as not moving.

QUOTE:

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

I dont care.
I cannot change what is going to happen, so why stress out about it.
It will be eventually, so in the words of four Scousers "Let it Be"

QUOTE:

1. Are you a sinner?

If by sinning, do I break the tenets of a 1500 year old book?
Then hell yeah!!
I drink too much caffiene, have drunk alcohol to excess, behaved in licentious behaviours with numerous members of the opposite sex and I dont wash my hands before dinner!

QUOTE:

2. Do you want forgiveness of sins?

Forgiveness indicates that you will not do it again, so ...

Nope, because I am only 41 and I intend to do it again before I start to smell and collect flies.

QUOTE:

3. Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and rose again?

No he didnt die for me, he died for his crimes.
... and the evidence could also lead you to believe that his followers removed his body on purpose to create a myth

QUOTE:

4. Are you willing to surrender your life to Jesus Christ?

No I am not prepared to surrender the steam off my coffee to a made-up hero in a second rate story.
But the cute German girls look like they need me to surrender!!

QUOTE:

5. Are you ready to invite Jesus Christ into your life and into your heart?

Only if he pays for his share of the last supper!


Blackbird
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Joined Fri 12/22/06
Posts: 202
Thu 06/12/08 03:16 AM
QUOTE:

I've been reading a good book called Share Jesus without Fear by William Fay. If you're looking around for a good book to read, I'd recommend it. He recommends using five questions as a lead-in to talking to people about your faith

1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?

2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

And from there, it leads him to share scriptures with the people he talks to. Sometimes he meets with anger and asks what makes the person so angry and asks what the person has done or what has been done to them to make them feel that way, or asks what they are feeling or what they're afraid of.

At any rate, I thought the book was and is very interesting and am continuing to learn from it.

He goes on to share verses like

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 3:23: For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Romans 3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death (physical death and eternal seperation from God), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

For I delieverd unto you first of all that which I also received, that Christ dies for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again, the third day, according to the Scriptures (l Cor 15: 3-4).

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and he with me (Rev 3:20).

For "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13.

He says that you can have someone read these scriptures and explain to you what they think they mean and you can ask

1. Are you a sinner?

2. Do you want forgiveness of sins?

3. Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and rose again?

4. Are you willing to surrender your life to Jesus Christ?

5. Are you ready to invite Jesus Christ into your life and into your heart?

He recommends that you be silent and pray after asking these questions.

He says if someone says yes to question five, you can ask him or her to pray: Heavnly Father, I have sinned against you. I want forgiveness for all my sins. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for me and rose again. Father, I give you my life to do with as you wish. I want Jesus Christ to come into my life and into my heart. This I ask in Jesus' name, Amen.




Since Abra and Belushi replied I thought I would go ahead and respond just to offer a third perspective.

1.Do I have any spiritual beliefs?
Yes, I always have. Even when I was angry with the Christian church, the failures of the bible, and the way the faith as a whole failed to live up to it's own standards I still believed Jesus was a great teacher.
After leaving the church so to speak I learned, evolved, and began to understand that so many religions and belief systems are very similar. In truth the path I follow now is eclectic, and in some ways I refuse to label many things other than for explaining them to others. My reasoning is that regardless of a name used there is a power, regardless of the source divine intent and thought is divine and intent and thought. Regardless of source wrong throught or intent is wrong.

2.What do you think about Jesus?
I think Jesus was one of the most enlightened beings to ever grace the human race with lessons. I take issue with the thought that he was the only begotten son of the higher power creator for simple reasons. To me this implies and constitutes cultural prejudice. It is stated he is the only path, but that would instantly condemn all people of all cultures that had other faith followings regardless of how good or bad. the higher power I believe in loves all of it's children equally without giving special rights, privilages, or divine origin to a specific cultural following from one point in history in one geographical location. I believe this widespread belief among Christians has been more damaging than helpful to their souls.

3.Do you believe in heaven and hell?
I believe in states of heaven and hell both in this world and the one beyond. I believe the literal translation of texts was meant for a people that was not capable of understanding the more complex concepts of spirituality and life outside of the physical world. What they interpreted as a physical place I interpret as a state of mind or state of being.

4.If I die right now where would I go?
Where I am needed or where I am most appropriate. Definition of the spiritual world by physical beings is problematic. We will transcend as the natural evolution of our spirits require. Trying to imagine the next world or next step our spirits will take is something I think is a futile fantasy when we are in all humble existence lacking in divine knowledge of all things.

5.If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?
Yes, but who is qualified to tell me other than the higher creation power? Who other than Jesus, Buhda, or one of divine enlightenment could presume to OWN my soul, or know my soul or the will of the higher creation power for me other than me? If he were living I personally believe even Jesus Christ if speaking to me would probably simply say it was for me to understand on my own and that he could help me reach my own path, but that for it to be my true path I would have to take the steps rather than be told to take the steps.

On scripture I will attempt to explain what they mean to me personally but one or two I take issue with...

Romans 5:8 To satisfy God, or the bloodlust of man and his psychological need for sacrifice?

Romans 3:23 It as our parent, creator force, hopes that we as children will learn and grow to become more like him, more godlke in nature in our own divinity. When we fail to seek the higher path, when we fail to embrace divinity, fail to honor our own spirits or consider our fair treatment of other human beings with respect and dignity we fall short in the measurement against the higher creator being's intent. To be full of the glory of the creator, we must shine like a beacon from within our souls regardless of our physical state.

Romans 3:10 We are righteous when facing ourselves. We are only given merit to judge in totality ourselves, and understand in totality ourselves presuming we are able to concentrate and put our energies towards this. Human beings lack the authority to choose the path of others, enslave, control, or demean them for their own amusement.

Romans 6:23 To me this is a large source of Christian misconception leading to fear and forcing others to accept Jesus Christ as they understand him as Savior. How can a spectacular person of great spiritual conviction in the 1200s in brazil recognize the name Jesus Christ or call him savior by that name? True sin which is that against another being (if broken down this is the origin of all sin in reality rather than some unrealistic belief it is a sin against a higher being) and therefore a sin against ourselves (yes it is complicated and the sin translates to being against them, ourselves, and then by that merit against the higher power) and this eats at the soul whether one admits or acknowledges it or not. In theory if it eats badly enough a person could die sooner, but the death spoken of is a spiritual death and a devout christian with sin in their heart will die spiritually and remain dead to their higher power even after death failing to ever reach the state of heaven they believe is their right for belief in Jesus Christ. In theory Jesus's promise to speak for them may be a promise to try to find their spirit in death and breath new (joy,light,life) into the spirit. Even in this case though it would require the spirit be willing to accept the light.

John 1:12 Another source of cultural genocide unfortunately. this is taken to mean that he awards a right they never had whereas we all have inherent spirit that we can acknowledge or ignore. I believe that in reality it is meant to signify that those who accept the light in their heart (the true light that is rather than false light) become true children of the higher being emulating it's spirit. The second part of this passage I am afraid I consider false pride, and destructive as I believe the intent was that if people could take baby steps they could eventually approach this light. Unfortunately it is not considered in original form by modern people, and I suspect the original text said (or meant) something else altogether.

Cor 15 3-4
This question should be avoided at all costs because it exposes the whole rebirth, fertility links to pagan belief systems that had nothing to do with previous teachings of god and have little to do with Christianity as modern people understand it.
Christ was sacrificed to appease man's need for sacrifice. I believe this was a divine solution to the problem of human kind understanding prayer as the physical form of scarifice without taking self responsibility and considering prayer an internal mechanism for communion with the holy spirit. He rose again because there is a life beyond this one and as we die, we rise to continue on our path.

REVE 3:20 The spirit of the higher creator power is always present without and within we must only feel it without name, intent, or purpose to commune with it. If you stop at any time and disregard the physical world this spirit is there in the form of energy that exists in all things. To exchange the energies of life is to share the englightenment that we possess. Just as the higher creator or his enlightened servent (Christ, Buhda) posses it's own unique energies, knowledge, and experience we too have our own unique essense. Regardless of it's value we are given fair trade and exchange for this whether what we give is of true significance or lesser value.

Romans 10:13 What name? Who's name? I AM? Which name by who's definition? This is really a huge source of misconception by Christians around the globe because the feeling of higher sentience or the creator power is beyond human definition. Even if the spirit owns our souls to claim we can name him with authority better than another human being is the claim that we are superior or above other humans, or OWN our god.

1. Yes I have been known to sin against my brethren.

2. Only if it is in the heart of those I sinned against to offer forgivness. By my personal belief even if a higher power asked them to forgive me it is their personal right to refuse unless they are engulfed in the divine power and returned to complete oneness with the creative power which would preclude personal choice or prejudice without personal identity.

3. I believe that Jesus died on the cross to satisfy the barbaric blood lust of human kind to put an end once and for all to blood sacrifice and the waste of food ect that was being given to the hebrew god while other people starved. A higher being lacks NEED for sacrifice because it can have anything in creation that it made. There was simply no other way to explain this to the human race so he sacrificed himself TO the human race so that they could adopt a practice of inner worship rather than outer worship. After 2000 years I will add this has still not worked and posturing without true intent in a shameful form has never ceased to exist as a widespread practice.

4. To make you happy? I'll surrender my life to myself because when it's all said and done I need to carry my own spiritual burden. Surrender your life to Jesus because you can't handle it? Jesus Christ is a teacher, and enlightened spirit used as a scapegoat by the unscrupulous, and spiritual lazy or weak in fortitude for 2000 years I think he's been given enough burdens to bear with people that have no wish to progress spiritually within their own right, accept responsibility for their own sins against others, or have the SPIRITUAL fortitude to understand that they alone hold the key and the choice to their own salvation with or without Jesus trying to drag them along by the hand (even if gently).

5. I know him better than most proffessed Christians. My relationship with my enlightened guides and my higher power is my right, and my business. If so called christians would stop trying to save other people long enough to save themselves I think we would be living in a better world. The name is useless because a false proclaimer is nothing to God try reading 1 Corinthians 13, step off of your belief that Christians own spirituality, and step back into the light that Jesus taught you to follow!

Pray to your concept of God and Jesus? I refuse to pray to a false god it's blasphemy. I refuse to acknowledge a view of a childish selfish little hearted demon god or a savior that is offered no more respect by his proffessed followers than a hotel valet.

He's wrong because it assumes that they accept YOUR view of Christ and God. I engage mostly in singular silent communication because even if I try to perfectly state my belief out loud no one else will understand it. What you pray within yourself is more important than the demonstration of prayer. TRUE prayer is rewarded with credit and False posturing prayer is rewareded with indifference read Genesis.

now if in any way I seem hostile to this it is because it follows the standard gentle approach of conversion which completely ignores self responsibility in the spiritual process. It puts a person in the position of representing God when they only represent themselves and their own view of God which per my view is pretty warped. When Christians stop attempting cultural and spiritual genocide they will be more accepted in their prayers by the rest of the populace.

If you have questions feel free to ask, but skip disputing my answers because you asked for my answers and I attempted even conveying my exact outrage to each proposed statement, question, or attempt. This is the easy way out if you show up at my door trying to convert me to your version of Christianity I will break your faith like a toothpick for daring to blashphem on my doorstep. Some of us are loving and gentle, until you try to posses our souls, which belong to us, and the creator power without owing ownership rights to any human being per your own bible, and that is what christians have never woke up to realize.
Edited by Blackbird on Thu 06/12/08 03:23 AM
transientmind
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Joined Sat 03/10/07
Posts: 3069
Thu 06/12/08 03:44 AM
1. Yes, my spirituality is a bit of a study in itself.

2. I think He existed, but His purpose is different than the classical understanding. Incidently there's no J in the Greek or Hebrew alphabet, so likely no one called him "Jesus" while he was alive.

3. In the sense that hell is what will the earth will become when we bomb the crap out of it, yeah. ...And heaven? Our only escape will be the heavens, hopefully we'll learn our lesson and make a much better place.

3. "The dead know not anything." Purina worm chow. Back to "Gods hand" the web of life.

4. Me? Wrong? Heh.


---

1. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Basically nobody's perfect yet.

2. Yes please. Forget the incident and remember the lesson.

3. I think there's a bigger picture. Lucifer being a heavenly being, fallen by selfishness, greed, etc. and his actions killed a member of the Godhead? His creator? I think of it as a parable.

4. To his character, to the endless pursuit of perfection.

5. Every day, every moment. It has to be, look at the world, look at the "Fruits of the Spirit." That's how we screwed up religion, it's about honor and being the best person you can, recognizing when you fall and deciding not to make the same mistake twice. THAT's true religion in my opinion.
yashafox
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Joined Sat 12/15/07
Posts: 2011
Thu 06/12/08 04:24 PM
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That is his message and that's my message to you. If you care to accept him, he has salvation for you. If you don't care to accept him, he'll shun us after we pass from this life. Not a great concept.

I'm glad you're looking at these threads. These may be threads where God can speak to your heart. I hope that he does.

I've had a long struggle with this. I had to figure out how God fit into my life and how to walk once I accepted his life, death and ressurection by faith. It takes worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry and mission to make a complete Christian life once you get past the initial accept or reject thing.

Christ is offering you his salvation today. It's a free gift. All you have to do is turn to him, publicly admit you sin and your need for him, your belief in his life, death and ressurection (if you, in fact, believe it: it takes faith), and your willingness to ask him into your life and your willingness to let him start to take over.

Hard to do. Hard to explain how it all works, but I like to try and that's what this thread is all about. I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me and the opportunity to share my beliefs with you.

May God reach you through this forum and other avenues he has.

Geo.
wouldee
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Joined Sun 10/07/07
Posts: 3733
Thu 06/12/08 04:29 PM
heart
Abracadabra
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Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 5844
Thu 06/12/08 06:18 PM
QUOTE:
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That is his message and that's my message to you. If you care to accept him, he has salvation for you. If you don't care to accept him, he'll shun us after we pass from this life. Not a great concept.


No that's not a great concept at all. What kind of a supreme being would threaten to harm people for not worshiping him? Sounds like something straight out of Greek Mythology.

I'm sorry to hear that you have been frightened by these old myths. I can assure you that there is nothing to fear George. You can rest assured that if there is a supreme intelligence behind the creation of this universe it would not have stooped such ruthless and disgusting tactics as this to try to get people to worship it.

Yes, there most likely was a man named Jesus. He probably was a really great teachers and he probably did teach love and respect for all men. He probably did confront the Romans in a civil rights movement. And he probably was crucified unjustly on a cross. And there probably were roomers floating around that he was seen after he had died. After all, he was a martyr to the people.

Unfortunately, he was probably used again by the authoritarians to create a religion that is based on this martyr. They no doubt were anxious to use the rumors of Jesus having been seen after he was crucified. That would just play right into their hands. They created a Church of Christ and used it to restore law and order using the authority of the church to rule over the land.

It worked so well, and they enforced it so violently that it became the major religious power of the region and beyond.

Are you aware that it was the early Christian Church that actually went into Greece and very methodically proselytized the relation and gradually denounced the Greek religions as myths. Yes, it's true. For the Greeks the Greek Gods and Goddess were very real. They worshiped Zeus and Apollo with the same sincerity and devotion that Christian today worship Jehovah and Jesus. But via hardcore, threatening, and relentless proselytizing the Christians finally won the religious propaganda wars and eventually proclaims that the Greek Gods were myths and that their Jesus was the only real true God.

They abused and used Jesus him to create a religion that spread hatred and fear throughout the world.

You are now in the aftermath of all this. And those same authoritarians, used Jesus are now using you via their ugly hateful religious machinery. Sure, they are long dead gone. But they have still successfully brainwashed you just via pure momentum. They are using you to spread the same hatred and religious intolerance.

You are preaching to people, "Either worship Christianity or go to hell!"

It's has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus was just used just like you are being use. They didn't kill him with the intention of using him. They killed him as an example to show the people that they won't tolerate civil protests. But then after they killed him he became such a martyr in the people's eyes that the uncouth authoritarians created a religion out of him to spread religious intolerance throughout the land.

That's all you are doing here George. You're just spreading more religious intolerance. You preaching, "Either worship Christianity or go to hell!" Either bow down to this religion or God himself will shun you for all of eternity and you won't get a second chance! Get down on your knees right now and worship this RELIGION.

You see George, it's not about love. It's not about personal salvation. That's just a guilt trip to get people like you to do precisely what the authors of the religion had in mind.

Do you honestly believe that the creator of this universe could be as ruthless and cutthroat as the men who wrote these terrible hateful stories? Stories that portray God as an egotistical pig who will toss anyone into hell who doesn't bow down and worship him????

So you REALLY BELIEVE that the creator of this universe could be that disgusting?
TheLonelyWalker
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Joined Sat 04/07/07
Posts: 10874
Thu 06/12/08 06:31 PM
QUOTE:

So you REALLY BELIEVE that the creator of this universe could be that disgusting?


Disgusting from your point of view which is just from ONE PERSON and SOME others.
As you don't accept our truth. I (talking just from me) don't accept yours.
I accept my Lord's truth instead which is not disgusting at all for me (again just talking for me.)
anoasis
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Joined Mon 06/18/07
Posts: 1344
Thu 06/12/08 06:48 PM
QUOTE:

1. Are you a sinner?

If by sinning, do I break the tenets of a 1500 year old book?
Then hell yeah!!
I drink too much caffiene, have drunk alcohol to excess, behaved in licentious behaviours with numerous members of the opposite sex and I dont wash my hands before dinner!




Well Belushi, I rarely judge others (who am I after all and all that jazz...)

But in this case I just cannot let this pass without expressing my distaste...

my disillusionment...

my shock and horror...

I mean REALLY!!!....






You don't wash your hands before dinner?!?!?!

laughlaughlaughlaughlaugh





anoasis
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Joined Mon 06/18/07
Posts: 1344
Thu 06/12/08 06:56 PM
I thought the first 5 questions were ok, I would be open to discussing... but as soon as you start talking about "sin" I just don't feel like going into it *again*... I've had that discussion too many times.

And heaven/hell? Why any grown person would believe that is beyond my comprehension...
To me it sounds like something for children- a santa claus/boogie man scenario... I can be "good" (not perfect but doing my best...) just for the sake of doing the right thing, feeling good about my choices, and not wanting to harm others- I don't need threats of eternal damnation or promises of eternal rewards to make me do the best I can to make the right choices and help others...

But that's just me. You go ahead and believe whatever feels true and good but doesn't involve harming others....

flowerforyou







KerryO
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Joined Sat 03/17/07
Posts: 411
Thu 06/12/08 06:57 PM
QUOTE:


1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?



I've always found that the opening to M. Scott Peck's "The Road Less Travelled" to be pretty spiritual:

"Life is difficult. This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we truly see this truth, we transcend it."

2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

An exceptional human being whose memory and teachings have often, unfortunately, been transformed into something resembling an Amway franchise.


3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

I believe in the racial memory. Hell is what human evil creates right here on earth.

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

Been there and back. Nothing special to report.

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

Cogito, ergo sum. Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. Likewise, I'm sure. Oh, and sorry, no sale.

-Kerry O.






Abracadabra
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Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 5844
Thu 06/12/08 06:58 PM
QUOTE:
As you don't accept our truth. I (talking just from me) don't accept yours.


Good. Then we're even. flowerforyou
TheLonelyWalker
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Joined Sat 04/07/07
Posts: 10874
Thu 06/12/08 07:00 PM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:
As you don't accept our truth. I (talking just from me) don't accept yours.


Good. Then we're even. flowerforyou

cool beans
Jeanniebean
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Joined Wed 01/30/08
Posts: 4164
Thu 06/12/08 11:26 PM
Not that the conversation would ever get that far, but here are my answers:bigsmile


Here's my answers to the questions.

1. Do you have any spiritual beliefs?

All my beliefs are spiritual.smokin


2. What do you think about Jesus? Who is Jesus?

Is he real or a myth? That's what I wonder. Is he god? NO.



3. Do you believe in heaven or hell?

Not really.

4. If you died right now, where would you go?

Level 27 for a while, then back home.happy

5. If what you believe isn't true, would you like to know?

Of course. How about you?

1. Are you a sinner?

No. You have to be a Christian to be a sinner. The term "sin" is only defined within the context of religious doctrine and it means to disobey the Christian concept of god.

2. Do you want forgiveness of sins?

I don't need forgiveness of sins because I'm not a Christian.

3. Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and rose again?

No and no.

4. Are you willing to surrender your life to Jesus Christ?

Why would I do that? There is no real proof the man was who they say he was or even if he existed.

5. Are you ready to invite Jesus Christ into your life and into your heart?

Why would I do that? There is no real proof the man was who they say he was or even if he existed.

JB

Blackbird
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Joined Fri 12/22/06
Posts: 202
Fri 06/13/08 04:24 AM
QUOTE:

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That is his message and that's my message to you. If you care to accept him, he has salvation for you. If you don't care to accept him, he'll shun us after we pass from this life. Not a great concept.

I'm glad you're looking at these threads. These may be threads where God can speak to your heart. I hope that he does.

I've had a long struggle with this. I had to figure out how God fit into my life and how to walk once I accepted his life, death and ressurection by faith. It takes worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry and mission to make a complete Christian life once you get past the initial accept or reject thing.

Christ is offering you his salvation today. It's a free gift. All you have to do is turn to him, publicly admit you sin and your need for him, your belief in his life, death and ressurection (if you, in fact, believe it: it takes faith), and your willingness to ask him into your life and your willingness to let him start to take over.

Hard to do. Hard to explain how it all works, but I like to try and that's what this thread is all about. I appreciate you sharing your beliefs with me and the opportunity to share my beliefs with you.

May God reach you through this forum and other avenues he has.

Geo.


Geo although I think you have started to take a spectacular direction I would like to point out this deviates horribly from the teachings of Christ. I believe that pride per the teachings of the bible is the work of the devil.

For one, If Christ lived today, I think he himself would refuse to be a Christian. Worse yet, I think Christ would be called a non Christian and have a bunch of Christians telling him he was damned to go to hell for not accepting himself because they would not know or recognize him or his true teachings. I have heard Christians say over and over "What would Jesus do". This question is well applied outside of a sunday school childish explaination of the demand that Christ be accepted.

When I ask myself what I think Jesus would say about a faith using his name to propogate a religion that psychologically threatens people, and scares them into submission I think he would weep, or go into another fit of outrage such as he did in the temple.

No matter how many times, or how many ways I explain this it becomes abundently clear that the Christian body of followers as a group just don't understand or care about the teachings of Christ. Did he ever ask that a following be formed in his name and use his name and lessons to threaten, or play psychology games with others trying to force them into submission to a religion?

As an unbiased non Chirstian I know his teachings well and could stand before a group preaching his ways better than most simply because I follow his lessons, rather than attempt to be part of a club, or behave in a wolf pack mentality pattern.

The very concept of seperatism or that people be bludggeoned psychologically into accepting Christ or christianity goes against his teachings! The church as an organized body has been preaching his lessons while ignoring their meaning for 1500 years and you sit there and can not recognize this simple fact?

If you want to truly spread the teachings of Christ then you must follow the teachings of Christ first and foremost. Make people want to be a christian based on their respect for who you are. Following the conversion methods of the church, the seperatism attitudes of judgement or claims that only he has the right to make ect only serve to advertise against christianity. Who said "If you turn away the least of men, you turn away me"? (this is of course paraphrased)

When I say Christ or Jesus I always try to capitalize out of respect for a concept of what we call him even though it was not his name. When I say christianity much of the time I leave it lower case, because I have seen it demonstrated over and over to be an abomination against Christ, and I believe a good Christian would agree with all of this after reading these threads. Now notice I state I BELIEVE because I know that my belief is just that, and to claim to know what Christ or the creator wants is blashpemy and a claim to be a false god. Even a child in a church can tell you worshiping a bible or the words of man is idol worship placing an idol before God.

I am a Pagan, Shamanistic, Wiccan. I follow any and all good teachings in my heart that mirror the lessons of Christ I was taught as a child. I believe that the claim of ownership of the one true path by christianity is similar to claiming you OWN GOD, but it is the other way around per your own bible. I know my views aren't accepted among blind faith followers, born again Christians, or fundamentalists...but they should be per my opinion because all of those people claim to follow Christ.

Again read 1 Corinthians 13. What you claim as a child is a childish claim. An evolved view of religion, the following of teachings, and a stressed personal path rather than trying to buy your way into heaven by converting others or professing belief per my personal opinion is a worthy path of someone who accepts Christ in their heart truly.

Until you take all of the threats, negativity, and the psychological ploys out of your conversion tactics you are likely to turn more people away from christianity than you will convert by my own personal opinion.

The thing to consider is that all of these methods were developed by a primative church to convert primative man. They disregard true enlightenment, true intelligence, and even the respect of your brethren. Religious reform begins with the individual. I believe the only way christianity will survive as a religion for the next "1000" years is by engaging in serious reform.

Who am I? Not anyone important...
What is my authority? I'm just someone that loves you.
Bless, Shalome, Namaste', and Love and Light
Edited by Blackbird on Fri 06/13/08 04:25 AM
yashafox
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Joined Sat 12/15/07
Posts: 2011
Fri 06/13/08 01:58 PM
Jesus was someone from God telling us the way to get closer to God and said admitting we're seperated sinners and opening your heart and your life and having a relationship with Him was the way.

Sometimes a stone the builders reject can be the most important stone of all.

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