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Topic: Belief or Betrayal

funches
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Fri 06/13/08 07:55 AM
how could a believer claim that they will have eternal peace in Heaven knowing that their loves ones are being tortured in Hell for an eternity while they worship and praise the God that is responsible for causing their family and friends torment

would the only way to deal with such a dilemma require that the believer cut all ties with their human emotions and therefore exist as spiritual sociopaths or do the believer actually emotionally feed off the fact that one day a multitude of others will be tormented

surely a believer would say that it was the others choice not to follow God and they must suffer the consequences but that still doesn't address the main issue which is why would a believer praise a God that would have to torture others for an eternity and the believer not speak against this for that eternity...

so would praising such a God be more like a betrayal or indifference against the believer's love ones and/or the human race and has that been what religion has been about through-out history ...indifference
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 08:07 AM
Eventually, every person must come to realize that we each make our own decisions. When a relative, friend or lover makes bad decisions, we cannot carry that blame around forever. Forgiving ourselves is the only way to have eternal peace.
JTstrang
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Fri 06/13/08 08:09 AM
There is no God there is no heaven and if there is a God, I am not happy with him. And if there is a heaven, and all the people that get to go are the one who say they are going there I would much prefer the torment in hell rather than the torment of heaven.
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 08:13 AM
QUOTE:

There is no God there is no heaven and if there is a God, I am not happy with him. And if there is a heaven, and all the people that get to go are the one who say they are going there I would much prefer the torment in hell rather than the torment of heaven.


How do you know that there is no God and no heaven?

Why aren't you happy with God?

Nobody goes to heaven because they say they are.

Nobody will prefer hell.
JTstrang
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Fri 06/13/08 08:36 AM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:

There is no God there is no heaven and if there is a God, I am not happy with him. And if there is a heaven, and all the people that get to go are the one who say they are going there I would much prefer the torment in hell rather than the torment of heaven.


How do you know that there is no God and no heaven?

Why aren't you happy with God?

Nobody goes to heaven because they say they are.

Nobody will prefer hell.



How do yo know there is a god. Give me actual empirical evidence. My life is ****, even when i believed in the giant invisible man it kept getting worse. Aparantly in most church culture, you follow some bull**** the guy on the pulpit says and you are going to heaven. If those sheep are going to heaven, then yes, i will prefer hell.
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 08:48 AM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:

QUOTE:

There is no God there is no heaven and if there is a God, I am not happy with him. And if there is a heaven, and all the people that get to go are the one who say they are going there I would much prefer the torment in hell rather than the torment of heaven.


How do you know that there is no God and no heaven?

Why aren't you happy with God?

Nobody goes to heaven because they say they are.

Nobody will prefer hell.



How do yo know there is a god. Give me actual empirical evidence. My life is ****, even when i believed in the giant invisible man it kept getting worse. Aparantly in most church culture, you follow some bull**** the guy on the pulpit says and you are going to heaven. If those sheep are going to heaven, then yes, i will prefer hell.



You didn't answer my question. I did not say "God exists", I asked you how you know that God doesn't exist. If your proof that God doesn't exist is that your life is hard, then I hardly think that's proof. Many people have hard lives, it's part of being human. Jesus was tortured and executed and never commited a single sin. He healed the sick, raised the dead and fed the hungry, he did nothing to deserve to suffer, but suffering is part of our world due to our own sins.

Nobody standing behind a pulpit can say anyone is going to heaven or hell with any authority. That decision belongs to Jesus alone.
JTstrang
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Fri 06/13/08 09:02 AM
If the god of the bible existed, then why is life so contrary? Why such a different tone from old to new testament? Why do gods laws so closely follow the values of the neolithic man. That and i have never met god. I have never seen a miracle, just simple explainable coincidences.
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 09:18 AM
QUOTE:

If the god of the bible existed, then why is life so contrary? Why such a different tone from old to new testament? Why do gods laws so closely follow the values of the neolithic man. That and i have never met god. I have never seen a miracle, just simple explainable coincidences.


1) Because we make it so. Only natural disasters could even be blamed on God and those are simply part of the natural world. Mankind wages war and commits crimes, insults, belittles, ignore and hurts in all ways each other.

2) I'm not sure what you mean by "Why do gods laws so closely follow the values of the neolithic man." Jesus taught that certain behaviors were regulated by God, because man was so hard hearted that man would have done it even if God had said not to.

3) You have never met God or witnessed a miracle? That's because to meet God or witness a miracle would remove your free will. It would exclude the possiblity that God doesn't exist from your mind, so you would choose to worship God for reward or to avoid punishment. God wants us to worship out of faith and love, not fear and greed.
JTstrang
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Fri 06/13/08 09:21 AM
So how do you know there is a god, give me concrete proof, not fairy tales in a book written by man.
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 09:24 AM
QUOTE:

So how do you know there is a god, give me concrete proof, not fairy tales in a book written by man.


I'm not trying to prove that God exists. Read point three in my previous post. If I could give you absolute proof that God exists, then I would be robbing you of free will. You must believe through faith.
JTstrang
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Fri 06/13/08 09:26 AM
all of your arguments are GOD based. so then what are you trying to prove,That he doesn't not exist?
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 09:30 AM
QUOTE:

all of your arguments are GOD based. so then what are you trying to prove,That he doesn't not exist?


I'm explaining that I don't believe God's existance can be proven or disproven. I'm encouraging you to think, see beyond your current misery and see that your suffering doesn't mean God is cruel or that God doesn't exist. Your suffering is a fact of life, not evidence to the nature or existance of God.
funches
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Fri 06/13/08 09:44 AM
QUOTE:

Eventually, every person must come to realize that we each make our own decisions. When a relative, friend or lover makes bad decisions, we cannot carry that blame around forever. Forgiving ourselves is the only way to have eternal peace.


so instead you will choose to close your mind and praise the torturer that is torturing your friends and family rather than speak against the torture ....

isn't that what is taking place in the world today...that Man exist in indifference to his fellow man which mean that Heaven will be no difference because it's citizens would have to exist in indifference as to what is actually going on
Eljay
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Fri 06/13/08 09:46 AM
Your original post assumes an unacceptable premise - that being

QUOTE:

... a believer praise a God that would have to torture others for an eternity and the believer not speak against this for that eternity...


God doing the torturing? Where does that information come from?

The fact of the matter (biblically, since that is where your inference has been established) is there is Heaven - where God is located, and (for lack of a better word) Hell - where he is not. Both locations are described in enough detail to render a response of "I never knew it would be like this" just idiotic.

Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice?

Though I grieve for those who have been near and dear to me for the choices they made to reject God, I'm a reasonable enough individual to know the folly of blaming God for their eternity.

That's man blaming on his boots the faults of his feet.
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 10:00 AM
QUOTE:

Your original post assumes an unacceptable premise - that being

QUOTE:

... a believer praise a God that would have to torture others for an eternity and the believer not speak against this for that eternity...


God doing the torturing? Where does that information come from?

The fact of the matter (biblically, since that is where your inference has been established) is there is Heaven - where God is located, and (for lack of a better word) Hell - where he is not. Both locations are described in enough detail to render a response of "I never knew it would be like this" just idiotic.

Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice?

Though I grieve for those who have been near and dear to me for the choices they made to reject God, I'm a reasonable enough individual to know the folly of blaming God for their eternity.

That's man blaming on his boots the faults of his feet.


What he said.
funches
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Fri 06/13/08 10:19 AM
QUOTE:

Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice?


God gives the individual a choice of "either or" which equations to a threat and not a choice ..but that is not the issue...the issue is why would people praise a God as he is torturing their love ones and not speak against it
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 10:25 AM
QUOTE:

QUOTE:

Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice?


God gives the individual a choice of "either or" which equations to a threat and not a choice ..but that is not the issue...the issue is why would people praise a God as he is torturing their love ones and not speak against it


It's not a threat. If people felt threatened, then there would be a whole lot more Christians. Only someone who believed in hell would feel threatened. Those who don't believe in hell couldn't care less.

Hell exists for all things which cannot stand in the presence of God. Humanity cannot, so God has allowed for mankind to be clothed in righteousness if we so choose. It is not God's fault if you can't be bothered to investigate Christianity. It's not God's fault if you reject salvation.
Abracadabra
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Fri 06/13/08 10:30 AM
QUOTE:
how could a believer claim that they will have eternal peace in Heaven knowing that their loves ones are being tortured in Hell for an eternity while they worship and praise the God that is responsible for causing their family and friends torment


Funches is 100% correct. And any objections to what he had said in the above quote are totally indefensible.

A religion can’t have a God who plays hide-&-seek and guessing games sending people to hell for having guessed wrong, and then claim that the those people chose to go to hell.

That’s absurd. And this is just one more of a myriad of reasons why non-believers don’t believe it.

The religion is absurd. The God plays hide-&-seek and then is mean to the people who don’t find him?

That’s utterly absurd. And it’s totally indefensible position.

Such a scenario would require that God sends innocent decent people to hell who have no chosen to go to hell at all. All they did was innocently claim that they could not find the God who plays hide-&-seek because evidently that God would need to be hiding behinds a myriad of lies. Who would be foolish enough to seek out a God who hides behinds lies????

Heaven would be full of fools and all the wise people would be in hell. What sense does that make?

What does God have against wise men? If he wanted fools as pets why didn’t he just stop when he created the monkeys? Why even bother to give men wisdom if he’s only going to cast the wise men into hell?

Again, it’s an utterly absurd scenario. You have to be a fool to believe that it could be true. That’s not meant as a personal insult to those who claim to believe it. I personally believe that the people who believe in this religion are believing in it because they have some sort of deep-seated guilt complex that they can’t seem to get over. They idea that they would believe in this religion because it appears to be a sound intellectual choice is impossible. The religion is full of absurdness and contradictions that no one can claim that it makes rational sense. No one can explain it rationally, because it’s a totally unreasonable picture.

This God would need to send reasonable people to hell because they choose to be reasonable.
Spidercmb
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Fri 06/13/08 10:33 AM
Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da
Edited by Spidercmb on Fri 06/13/08 10:34 AM
funches
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Fri 06/13/08 10:33 AM
QUOTE:

3) You have never met God or witnessed a miracle? That's because to meet God or witness a miracle would remove your free will. It would exclude the possiblity that God doesn't exist from your mind, so you would choose to worship God for reward or to avoid punishment. God wants us to worship out of faith and love, not fear and greed.


Spidercmb now you know that doesn't make any sense ..especially since there are no such things as miracles ...I even made a thread about miracles and ask people to tell of a miracle that happen today ..oddly no one could ..

also if God wanted you to worship him out of faith and not fear then he wouldn't have included Hell into the equation

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